(no subject)
Feb. 21st, 2013 04:31 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
randomlingOne artefact, at least for me, of being depressed and low on energy, is that I watch a lot of movies. There are quite a few I want to post about, but one I watched yesterday really stuck in my head because I was discussing something similar with my parents only the other day.
I've been thinking a lot about genre fusion lately, because I'm in the beginning stages of writing what looks like a gay paranormal romance. Paranormal romance started out as genre fusion itself, really, and while m/m is a growing romance genre with its own paranormal subsection, writing this still feels like genre fusion to a certain degree. (To, at least, the degree where I'm wondering whether I'll have room for all the paranormal and romance elements I want to include.)
Where this is relevant to genre fusion is that I watched Who Framed Roger Rabbit? the other day, which for those who haven't seen it, is a lovely, wacky fusion of 1940s hard-boiled detective story and, well, Looney Tunes. One problem genre-fusion pieces often have is incongruity - how can you have this element and that element next to each other? - and like all good fusions, Who Framed Roger Rabbit? makes a feature of the incongruity. (Another great example of a genre-fusion movie using incongruity to its advantage is Shaun of the Dead.) The way that Who Framed Roger Rabbit? builds this incongruous universe is by creating two separate communities - LA and Toon Town - and then having them mix, with disastrous and hilarious results.
The end product partly uses the Looney Tunes elements to spoof the hard-boiled detective story - though gently, with love, and interestingly, never down-playing the tragedy that sits at the heart of the detective story. I am interested to note that I saw this movie several times as a child, and had played it thinking that it would be a light, funny movie that I wouldn't have to think too hard about. It's true, it has plenty of light, funny moments, but the central storyline has both tragedy and peril, neither of which are themselves made fun of. I found it a much more affecting film on rewatch than I had remembered from childhood, and I'm keen to get it on DVD so I can rewatch it and start to pick apart how it does what it does.
(I really must either pick up a book on film criticism or take a class at some point. I want to understand the language, and A Level English Literature only takes one so far.)
***
My laptop died last week, taking a very great deal of my data with it. This sucks, though I do have a new computer, because the data it took includes the story I've been writing. There is a computer guy trying to fix it, so hopefully I'll get it back. In the meantime, I've been doing all the research. Because my main character is among other things Jewish, and I am not, this has included me trying to find out as much as I can about Jewish British culture, and Judaism in general.
I should really have expected this process to whack me upside the head with my WASP privilege. (Perhaps I didn't because I am, in fact, privileged.)
I'm still not sure if I have gleaned enough information to write my character with any degree of accuracy or sensitivity. I have a good idea of his general personality, and of many other things about him, but what I'm struggling with is figuring out how growing up in his particular segment of the Jewish community might have affected how he thinks, feels, acts. The thing about religion is that, it seems to me, the ways it affects you are myriad, and pervasive, and often really subtle. I'm in my 30s and still unpicking all the different ways my exposure to Christianity has affected me - and I didn't even have a "proper" Christian upbringing*.
I'm also keenly aware that Joel (my character) is just one person with one experience of one part of a community, and I need to resist the temptation to try and make him representative of everything ever, and to hobbyhorse about issues I know very little about, and to use him to explain All I Have Learned About Judaism. Because none of those things have a place in a novel. I have to say I'm finding my research really interesting and trying to absorb everything I can, because it's a topic I'm quickly discovering I really know next to nothing about (hello again, privilege). But the original core purpose of the research was to inform how I write about Joel, to understand that aspect of him better. I'm sure I haven't yet understood enough - there's part of me that's fairly sure I can never really understand enough about any culture that isn't mine - but I think at some point you have to start trying and seeing what mistakes you make. Reading on its own won't be enough; I will have to try and fail and be corrected and take that on the chin and know better next time.
I bought the Writing the Other ebook, which I'm hoping will teach me some of what I need to know to help me avoid these pitfalls. And perhaps there are many more that I don't even know about - I've never really written about a culture that wasn't mine before, unless you count US culture (and we have so much exposure to US-originated entertainment in the UK that often US culture doesn't "feel" foreign, though it only takes one USian cultural beta to remind me that it ACTUALLY IS).
In sum: I don't really know how I want to summarise all of this. I wanted to make a note of what I'm doing and why and some of the reasons I'm having wibbles. I'm not sure what else there is to say here. (I'm not after cookies! I wanted to write about it in case it was helpful for someone else to read in an "I'm not alone" sense, but I know this is not something I get special praise for. It's just a part of trying to write a book that doesn't have a totally whitewashed/WASP-washed cast.)
*FWIW, I went to a religious primary school, but neither of my parents practiced in any meaningful way (my dad is an atheist, my mum was excommunicated from the Catholic church when she married my dad who was divorced, has been a kind of religious seeker all her life, was a Buddhist for a while and now practices Sufism). I've tried to go back to church a few times - I always cry when I sing hymns (I don't know why) and I feel inspired by the idea of having a personal relationship with a higher being, but somehow I can't reconcile that with my commitment to rationalism and science. This feeling of being torn between spiritualism and rationalism itself feels bogus to me, because in theory I believe that science and religion are not mutually exclusive, but some part of me is convinced that I personally am not allowed to believe in God and believe in the scientific method. This is all somewhat complicated by the part where I am queer, don't really conform to my expected gender role, am disabled, and if I was going to have a religious/spiritual life I'd like it to be able to include those parts of me.
That's quite a lot of words. I think that's it for the day!
I've been thinking a lot about genre fusion lately, because I'm in the beginning stages of writing what looks like a gay paranormal romance. Paranormal romance started out as genre fusion itself, really, and while m/m is a growing romance genre with its own paranormal subsection, writing this still feels like genre fusion to a certain degree. (To, at least, the degree where I'm wondering whether I'll have room for all the paranormal and romance elements I want to include.)
Where this is relevant to genre fusion is that I watched Who Framed Roger Rabbit? the other day, which for those who haven't seen it, is a lovely, wacky fusion of 1940s hard-boiled detective story and, well, Looney Tunes. One problem genre-fusion pieces often have is incongruity - how can you have this element and that element next to each other? - and like all good fusions, Who Framed Roger Rabbit? makes a feature of the incongruity. (Another great example of a genre-fusion movie using incongruity to its advantage is Shaun of the Dead.) The way that Who Framed Roger Rabbit? builds this incongruous universe is by creating two separate communities - LA and Toon Town - and then having them mix, with disastrous and hilarious results.
The end product partly uses the Looney Tunes elements to spoof the hard-boiled detective story - though gently, with love, and interestingly, never down-playing the tragedy that sits at the heart of the detective story. I am interested to note that I saw this movie several times as a child, and had played it thinking that it would be a light, funny movie that I wouldn't have to think too hard about. It's true, it has plenty of light, funny moments, but the central storyline has both tragedy and peril, neither of which are themselves made fun of. I found it a much more affecting film on rewatch than I had remembered from childhood, and I'm keen to get it on DVD so I can rewatch it and start to pick apart how it does what it does.
(I really must either pick up a book on film criticism or take a class at some point. I want to understand the language, and A Level English Literature only takes one so far.)
***
My laptop died last week, taking a very great deal of my data with it. This sucks, though I do have a new computer, because the data it took includes the story I've been writing. There is a computer guy trying to fix it, so hopefully I'll get it back. In the meantime, I've been doing all the research. Because my main character is among other things Jewish, and I am not, this has included me trying to find out as much as I can about Jewish British culture, and Judaism in general.
I should really have expected this process to whack me upside the head with my WASP privilege. (Perhaps I didn't because I am, in fact, privileged.)
I'm still not sure if I have gleaned enough information to write my character with any degree of accuracy or sensitivity. I have a good idea of his general personality, and of many other things about him, but what I'm struggling with is figuring out how growing up in his particular segment of the Jewish community might have affected how he thinks, feels, acts. The thing about religion is that, it seems to me, the ways it affects you are myriad, and pervasive, and often really subtle. I'm in my 30s and still unpicking all the different ways my exposure to Christianity has affected me - and I didn't even have a "proper" Christian upbringing*.
I'm also keenly aware that Joel (my character) is just one person with one experience of one part of a community, and I need to resist the temptation to try and make him representative of everything ever, and to hobbyhorse about issues I know very little about, and to use him to explain All I Have Learned About Judaism. Because none of those things have a place in a novel. I have to say I'm finding my research really interesting and trying to absorb everything I can, because it's a topic I'm quickly discovering I really know next to nothing about (hello again, privilege). But the original core purpose of the research was to inform how I write about Joel, to understand that aspect of him better. I'm sure I haven't yet understood enough - there's part of me that's fairly sure I can never really understand enough about any culture that isn't mine - but I think at some point you have to start trying and seeing what mistakes you make. Reading on its own won't be enough; I will have to try and fail and be corrected and take that on the chin and know better next time.
I bought the Writing the Other ebook, which I'm hoping will teach me some of what I need to know to help me avoid these pitfalls. And perhaps there are many more that I don't even know about - I've never really written about a culture that wasn't mine before, unless you count US culture (and we have so much exposure to US-originated entertainment in the UK that often US culture doesn't "feel" foreign, though it only takes one USian cultural beta to remind me that it ACTUALLY IS).
In sum: I don't really know how I want to summarise all of this. I wanted to make a note of what I'm doing and why and some of the reasons I'm having wibbles. I'm not sure what else there is to say here. (I'm not after cookies! I wanted to write about it in case it was helpful for someone else to read in an "I'm not alone" sense, but I know this is not something I get special praise for. It's just a part of trying to write a book that doesn't have a totally whitewashed/WASP-washed cast.)
*FWIW, I went to a religious primary school, but neither of my parents practiced in any meaningful way (my dad is an atheist, my mum was excommunicated from the Catholic church when she married my dad who was divorced, has been a kind of religious seeker all her life, was a Buddhist for a while and now practices Sufism). I've tried to go back to church a few times - I always cry when I sing hymns (I don't know why) and I feel inspired by the idea of having a personal relationship with a higher being, but somehow I can't reconcile that with my commitment to rationalism and science. This feeling of being torn between spiritualism and rationalism itself feels bogus to me, because in theory I believe that science and religion are not mutually exclusive, but some part of me is convinced that I personally am not allowed to believe in God and believe in the scientific method. This is all somewhat complicated by the part where I am queer, don't really conform to my expected gender role, am disabled, and if I was going to have a religious/spiritual life I'd like it to be able to include those parts of me.
That's quite a lot of words. I think that's it for the day!
no subject
Date: 2013-02-21 06:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-02-21 06:30 pm (UTC)I don't have much writing to share just yet, but I would love to ask you some questions, if you are up for that? It feels like some of the problem is not knowing what I don't know, but I'm hoping I'll be able to ask some questions that aren't so broad as to be meaningless...
Thank you again for this, it is so much appreciated!
no subject
Date: 2013-02-21 06:57 pm (UTC)I have been personally involved in Reform, Liberal and Conservative (Masorti) communities, and have strong connections with Orthodox communities. I know a whole lot about the Jewish Queer scene, if you're interested in that stuff. I'm essentially a lay leader, I do a load of community education and running services, so I know a fair amount of as it were technical religious stuff. My dad's family have a "typical" Jewish story of immigration from Eastern Europe c 1900, my mum's family have been in the UK since the 18th century. Also I have a whole bunch of resources for finding out about specific topics, though it sounds like you're ok on the theory side.
Don't at all feel you have to come up with a question right now; let me know any time something comes up.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-21 07:21 pm (UTC)I'm also trying to figure out a denomination (if that's the right word?) for his family. This feels like an odd question to me because it seems like something that would probably go back generations rather than being a conscious choice for anyone, but then I have to make a conscious choice as the author, so. My character grew up (and still lives) in Oxfordshire, and the only synagogue I could find in the area is the one in Oxford, which appears to run mostly Orthodox services with some Masorti ones too. But I'm not sure if the information I found online is accurate. If it is, maybe I can assume that Joel's family is Orthodox or Masorti, on the basis that they'd probably move somewhere that had a place they could worship. On the other hand, maybe moving somewhere for a good reason like a job offer and travelling further afield to worship would also make sense. I have no idea, and I'm a bit adrift here. This is a mad ramble but I'd love to hear any thoughts you have?
And, okay, so this last one is pure intellectual curiosity. I was reading an article on the Jewish Chronicle web site and it mentioned in passing that it's not appropriate to call a Sephardic synagogue a shul. Is that because 'shul' is a Yiddish word and therefore that's not a word Sephardic Jews would use? Or is it more subtle than that?
Thank you again for this! (And you're right, I generally try not to act as if other people's lives are my $minority 101 class. I really do appreciate you taking the time to help me out! <3)
no subject
Date: 2013-02-21 07:53 pm (UTC)Denomination: it's a lot more flexible than Christian denominations, lots and lots of people belong to a different denomination from their parents. Particularly because many many towns outside London and Manchester only have one synagogue, so you go to the nearest regardless of whether it's exactly what you were brought up with. The boundaries between Orthodox and non-O denominations are somewhat less permeable, but someone who is male and has a Jewish mother can move about fairly freely.
Happily I can tell you lots about Oxford synagogue because I was a student there. It's almost unique in the country in that the building and facilities are shared amicably between all denominations who want to use them. As you say the services are mostly Orthodox at the moment, though it's to the leftier end of the Orthodox spectrum; for example they are reasonably inclusive of women, sticking to the bare minimum of religious restrictions on participation. There is a strong, well-established Masorti community. There is a smaller but definitely active Liberal community too, plus any number of groups run by students to do whatever style of service they happen to be interested in. Town / gown stuff can get a little weird, but basically there are students from absolutely every part of the Jewish spectrum and all over the world, so it's a particularly diverse community. If Joel is like most kids brought up in Oxford, he'll have sampled all different kinds of services at different times so probably by the time he grows up he will in fact be making a conscious choice of which denomination he feels most comfortable with. He's also likely to be pretty open-minded about the denoms he doesn't choose, though if perhaps if he had a bad experience he may have strong negative feelings.
And yes, shul is a Yiddish word so technically only appropriate for Ashkenazi synagogues. My (non-Jewish) husband thinks that I mainly use the word "shul" to refer to the institution, ie "I'm going to shul" means I'm going there for a service or other specifically religious activity, whereas I say "synagogue" if I mean the building as a physical object. Not totally sure that's true, but there might be a slight nuance there.
no subject
Date: 2013-02-21 11:58 pm (UTC)I've been having a look at the Keshet site and they look extremely cool. Joel's turning 30 this year, so in terms of his history I'm also curious what would have been around in his teens/early 20s in the late 90s. (The story's set now, so contemporary stuff is also really helpful, and I now have loads of resources to keep me busy finding that out!)
(ETA: My maths! Late 90s, dear me. Probably more like 98-04, ish.)
All the stuff on denominations and the Oxford synagogue is really helpful too - that helps give me a better idea of what Joel's religious upbringing might have been like (which I think is important for me to know). I'm not sure yet how religious Joel is in his adult life - I know that because of his various reasons for being mostly a shut-in (at least for a fair chunk of the story!) he probably doesn't make it to a lot of services. And I suppose I'm wondering what other things might be part of his religious life if that's the case. (Might he celebrate Shabbat alone, for example, or is that not something that makes sense? I think he might be tempted out to his parents' occasionally, but probably not that often. Are there other things he might do by himself? Or is this a senseless question?)
Also, more specifically about denominations, I have read a few summaries of the different ones, but I'm curious if there are things I haven't read about that might cause someone to choose one denomination over another, or feel more comfortable in a particular one. (What I've mostly read about are their theological differences, and also I've had an eye on how they feel about homosexuality and queer identities, because that's obviously quite relevant to how comfortable Joel might feel.) Are there other things that might have an effect on his choice, that I haven't thought of?
That is interesting! I'm not sure whether the word shul will come up in my story, but if it does I shall keep that in mind. :D
Another question I have is about invective. Quite a lot of surprising and/or unpleasant things are going to happen in this story so I think my characters are going to be using quite a lot of colourful language. I'm pretty sure I know what kind of language Joel's Catholic-raised boyfriend is going to use, but I'm not so sure about Joel himself. Um, obviously I know to avoid Jesus-related stuff, but should I be avoiding him taking God's name in vain? Uh, that'll probably depend on the religiosity of his upbringing and/or how he feels now. Not sure if this a weird question (and uh, this question is making me feel anxious that I'm crossing some kind of line for some reason, but I'm hoping that if I do, you'll let me know?).
Thank you again! Sorry, I appear to be made of questions.
Queer / Jewish in the 90s
Date: 2013-02-22 05:43 pm (UTC)1: R' Steve Greenberg, an out, gay Orthodox rabbi was doing the research and activism which eventually led up to this 2001 film Trembling before G-d. By the time the film was actually released, everybody who had any connection with the Queer community knew about it; whether Joel would have known about R' Greenberg's stuff before that depends how plugged in he was. This was on the international scene, but it had pretty big repercussions in terms of starting discussions in the UK.
2. My teacher R' Sheila Shulman founded Beit Klal Yisrael, a gay synagogue in London. It was a funny institution in the 90s, the community leaders were mostly lesbians who were pretty radical and disaffected with the community, the members were mostly gay men who were fairly middle-of-the-road and only didn't fit in to the mainstream because of their sexuality. Some time towards the end of the 90s BKY affiliated to the Liberal movement rather than being completely independent; by 1998 most people would have been aware of it.
3. A bunch of religiously committed people were more or less pushed out of Orthodox Judaism because they were gay, and ended up training as rabbis in the Reform and Liberal movements. Mostly men. They kind of influenced the progressive movements to be more liturgically traditional but also more open-minded about Queer stuff. There were some Queer women as well, but fewer, and they tended not to be disaffected ex-Orthodox people, more like coming from the far left of the movement. There was just starting to be a conversation about same-sex marriage; it didn't have popular support in the 90s, but it was being talked about.
In the late 90s through mid-2000s, there was a bit of a Liberal-Reform divide on Queer issues specifically (otherwise the two denominations are pretty close and tend to work together on most things). The Liberal movement started to be pro same-sex marriage, and became increasingly positive about Queer issues and Queer people. The Reform movement faffed about and sort of didn't want to commit and was in principle supportive of individuals but dragging their feet over institutional change and not wanting to offend the more conservative members. A couple of synagogues and a couple of rabbis changed affiliation because of this issue.
Orthodox Judaism was anti-gay but not in a very big way, it wasn't the major defining thing it's started to creep towards now that there is a debate about same-sex marriage in general secular society. Although some gay men left the Orthodox movement over this (and some became Reform or Liberal rabbis, in fact), lots stayed, and it was a bit don't-ask-don't-tell-ish rather than outright prejudice. Depended on the community, of course.
Re: Queer / Jewish in the 90s
Date: 2013-02-22 06:41 pm (UTC)I think I've probably reached a point with this line of enquiry where I can put a pin in it until I start writing and discover I have to find X out right now before I write another word. That seems to happen a lot with scenes.
Thank you!
Religion at home
Date: 2013-02-22 05:59 pm (UTC)Shabbat is in fact primarily a home thing. It's having a really nice meal at home on Friday evening, and spending time quietly at home with people you love. For people who are traditionally observant, nearly all the observances are about changing the way you organize your home life (eg not cooking, not switching on and off electricity). You can go to synagogue if you want to, I'd even say it's encouraged, but it's by no means the main part of what Shabbat is.
Some people who have non-nuclear families and / or certain mental health issues can perceive that Shabbat as a home thing gets muddled up with Shabbat as a family thing. Celebrating it alone is certainly possible, though a bit, well, sad; normally when anyone celebrates anything they like to get together with people close to them. In good, vibrant communities people who have the resources to do so will invite single people and travellers into their homes so that nobody's left alone over Shabbat. This happens a lot in Oxford given that there's loads of students who are nearly all away from their nuclear families even if they're as straight as straight can be. And informal and semi-formal Queer groups will likely do Shabbat meals as an alternative-to-family thing, long before they get organized enough to do things like run services or even form their own synagogues. But in communities that don't function so well or just haven't thought about this properly, Queer people can sometimes pick up the message that they can't do "family" things unless they have a different-sex spouse and 2.4 kids, and feel excluded as a result.
Other things one might do at home: regular daily prayers; it's traditional to go to synagogue Monday and Thursday morning, though only the most religiously engaged people do that in modern society. But afternoon and evening prayers and morning prayers that are not on Monday and Thursday are nearly always carried out at home. Also keeping kosher; that's nearly entirely a home thing. Synagogues keep kosher too, of course, and some people will eat out only in kosher restaurants, but the bulk of what it means to eat only ritually appropriate food is a home-based thing. Two festivals which are primarily home-based are Pesach (Passover) and Chanukah (mid-winter festival of lights), and Sukkot (Tabernacles) has a major home-based component.
Re: Religion at home
Date: 2013-02-22 06:50 pm (UTC)Is there a middle ground with eating out, I wonder? Reading over the rules of kosher, I can see why keeping kosher while eating in a non-Jewish restaurant is basically impossible, but might some people, for example, decide to eat vegetarian food when they are eating out, to avoid some of the problems with meat not having been slaughtered in the proper way, for example?
Re: Religion at home
Date: 2013-02-22 07:39 pm (UTC)Usually we''ll do Italian or fish. At a breakfast place they might do waffles since they're not cooked on the griddle with the bacon and sausage. Fish usually broiled, since the flame will kind of obliterate the shrimp that was on there previously. For Italian think lots of cheese ravioli in basic marinara sauce.
More observant folks may stick to things like only fruit or veg. Possibly only what they peel themselves.
Re: Religion at home
Date: 2013-02-22 09:54 pm (UTC)Re: Religion at home
Date: 2013-02-22 10:33 pm (UTC)keeping kosher
Date: 2013-03-01 02:05 pm (UTC)Common compromises include: eat vegetarian food only, as you suggested. Some go further and eat only in strictly vegetarian establishments (so that they can be confident that none of the ovens, plates etc are ritually contaminated with non-kosher meat). Another variant is to eat only cold food, because cold food has less potential to ritually contaminate things than hot.
Another compromise is what's often referred to as "Biblical" kosher. Which is to say, people don't eat the species that are prohibited in the Bible, eg pig and pork products, shellfish etc, but do eat the permitted species such as beef, lamb, chicken, without regarding whether the animal was correctly slaughtered. Some will count halal meat as close enough to kosher, because the ritual slaughter is basically the same even if carried out by a Muslim rather than a Jew.
Re: keeping kosher
Date: 2013-03-03 03:27 pm (UTC)Denominations
Date: 2013-02-22 06:17 pm (UTC)Orthodox services are typically pretty informal in style. Any adult man who can read Hebrew can lead the prayers, rabbis are only used for special occasions and possibly for giving the sermon. People follow along at more or less their own pace; in some places the leader keeps the congregation approximately together at least for the important things, in others it really is total anarchy and nobody pays any attention to the guy who's supposed to be setting the pace. The service is exactly the same every week, and almost entirely in Hebrew (in Britain, the sermon is usually given in English these days, and there are one or two English prayers eg the prayer for Queen and Country). The leader kind of chant-mumbles the prayers at a pretty fast pace.
Masorti services are similar, but as a broad generalization, there tends to be a bit more communal singing and a bit more overt structure rather than literally just everybody doing their own thing. In the UK the words of the liturgy are nearly exactly identical between Orthodox and Masorti.
Reform services are formal. Traditionally, though this is dying out a bit, they are directly modelled on high church Anglican services, sometimes even with an organ and choir and stuff. There is lots of ceremony, people are expected to arrive on time and pay attention to every part of the service. Chatting during the boring bits is very much frowned upon! The service is led either by the rabbi or by someone with considerable experience / training, partly because the general structure is the same every week but the leader is supposed to vary things to make it topical and fresh every time, and that takes more training than just reading through the set prayers from the first page to the last. The prayers are in a mixture of Hebrew and English, and there is a lot of importance placed on rituals around venerating the Torah scrolls.
Liberal services historically used to be entirely in English, and with minimal visible ritual stuff. The structure was almost entirely up to the rabbi and could be very different week to week. Nowadays Liberal services and Reform services are pretty similar; Reform has got less starchy and formal and Liberal has got more attached to recognizable traditional rituals. So in both cases you'll get a mixture of Hebrew and English, a standardized prayerbook with the main traditional prayers in though with some variations in wording and some alternative options offered if you want to switch things around. Music may be an organ, or it may be modern instruments like pianos and guitars, there may be unison or part singing.
Re: Denominations
Date: 2013-02-22 06:56 pm (UTC)I think if I come to wanting to write a service-related scene, I might come back to you with very detailed questions, if that's okay! Then again, I'm not sure at this point whether that'll happen. There is big stuff happening to Joel, so at some point he might turn to the synagogue for spiritual support.
Invective
Date: 2013-02-22 06:32 pm (UTC)I personally don't swear "Jesus!" or "Christ!" but I do use generally Christian-flavoured invective like "Good grief!" or "Bloody Hell!" And I certainly do know plenty of Jews, even religious ones, who swear by Jesus just as often as their secular friends. Taking God's name in vain is of course forbidden, but whether saying "Oh God!" counts depends whom you ask. Some people do avoid swearing by God, some people even avoid writing or saying the word God at all at any time they're not in a specifically religious context. (You'll notice that the film title writes God as G-d, which is not uncommon among religious Orthodox Jews. Another alternative is to always use euphemisms for God, such as "HaShem" which means literally "the Name".) So, like you say, it'll depend on Joel's upbringing and his current feelings.
And don't worry, it's not at all offensive to ask. Swearing is a really good way of showcasing a character's culture. I don't think there's a standard way that Jews swear though, not British ones of our generation anyway.
Re: Invective
Date: 2013-02-22 07:02 pm (UTC)I think that based on that, Joel will probably swear a bit like me (except he is probably not quite as sailor-like as me, and might not swear by Jesus quite so often). In sum: Anglo Saxon for the win. :D
I like HaShem, though, I might see if I can put that in somewhere!
Thank you for this!
no subject
Date: 2013-02-22 06:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-02-22 07:05 pm (UTC)(Not too long; did read. :D)
A fairly quick one, I think!
Date: 2013-02-28 01:39 pm (UTC)This question brought to you partly by the realisation that I've done very little to clue the reader in to Joel's Jewish identity so far!
Thanks again for being awesome!
mensch
Date: 2013-03-01 01:57 pm (UTC)People vary a lot about whether they use Yiddish terms around non-Jews at all. Some do because it's the language that comes most naturally to them, or because they assume people will have picked up the obvious terms from American TV, or because they are trying to convey concepts that don't have a good equivalent in English. Some don't, because they don't want to be stereotyped, or because they think it's rude to use jargon another person might not understand.
Re: mensch
Date: 2013-03-03 03:33 pm (UTC)But it's possible (probable, even!) that the question of whether Joel uses Yiddish terms when talking to his non-Jewish friends will come up later in the book, so thank you very much for that extra info that I hadn't even considered. :D
no subject
Date: 2013-03-30 09:19 pm (UTC)(I know you may well be super-busy with Pesach stuff now, so I am of course cool with waiting a few days if that makes more sense.)
no subject
Date: 2013-04-01 06:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-01 07:10 pm (UTC)So I'm wondering whether or not it makes sense for Joel to have gone to boarding school. (Not one of the proper upper-echelon ones like Eton, more likely somewhere smaller and more provincial.)
I know that it's meaningless to ask about "Jewish attitudes" on a topic like this, because there will be plenty of different thoughts and opinions depending on who you ask! And Jewish parents are likely to have all the same reasons pro and con as anyone else. So what I'm wondering is twofold:
1. Are there specific considerations Jewish parents might want to take into account that I haven't thought of? I can think of religious considerations (like for example whether he will able to celebrate Shabbat or religious holidays that take place during term-time?) and maybe discrimination (like one thing my religion *did* turn up is that Eton is apparently quite anti-semitic). Are there other things I haven't considered?
2. Are there any Jewish schools in the UK that take boarders? A faith-based school might be an option for Joel, and I found a list of Jewish secondary schools, but it looks like they're all day schools.
Thanks again for helping me with this!
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Date: 2013-04-01 11:13 pm (UTC)It certainly isn't unheard of for Jewish kids to attend ordinary boarding schools either; my uncle and grandfather were both at Wellington, for example. That's a considerably older generation than Joel, of course. They had a pretty weird life there in lots of ways, but they weren't the only Jewish pupils either. As you've pointed out some of the big, famous Public schools have a reputation for anti-semitism.
I think Jewish parents would be concerned about shabbat and festival observance, yes, also about keeping kosher. With Judaism's emphasis on family-based religious observances, they might worry that their kid was missing out on that very important aspect of Jewish upbringing.
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Date: 2013-04-02 09:36 pm (UTC)Thanks again! :)
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Date: 2013-10-13 06:46 pm (UTC)So, I have a couple of questions this time around. One is completely a matter of curiosity and probably has little to no bearing on my actual writing, and one is a kind of deep question about religion and religious attitudes as they might pertain to Joel. So!
Trivial question first. There is a phrasing that you hear a lot in American TV: "I don't know from X", which I always thought was just American English, but an (American Jewish) friend of mine tells me it's Yiddish-derived. My question is: does this phrasing ever get used by British Jews, or does it sound exclusively American to your ears?
My second question is a bit long-winded.
If you were to ask Joel if he believes in God, I imagine he would say something like, "Yes. Well, most of the time, yeah. But for me it's also just about the least important part of my religion." And if the person he was talking to seemed interested, he might then talk about the parts of his religion that are more important to him - the stuff about being a good person, and about maintaining a historical and cultural connection to other Jews (even if he doesn't always do such a great job of maintaining a social connection).
My question around this is is this even vaguely plausible? (I think it would be considered a weird view, though not totally out of the question, within the Anglican Christianity I grew up with, but obviously I don't want to be unconsciously projecting Christian ideas onto a Jewish mindset.) If not, can I tweak it somehow to make it work better? I'm not sure how much the details Joel's religious convictions are going to make it into the novel, but they're an important part of his character and I'd like to get it right.
Thank you again!
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Date: 2013-10-14 08:08 pm (UTC)It's really hard to say definitively that a particular Yiddishism is definitely purely American and not British. For one thing, British Jews watch the same American comedies everybody else does and may pick up bits of American-Yiddish as a sort of badge of identity even if it isn't part of their native dialect. That said, my feeling would be that is primarily an American thing. I can't think of any of the Yiddish speakers of my acquaintance using that phrasing.
Note that the same grammatical construction exists in German and I do know some European Jews, whose first language is German, not Yiddish, who will say as one of a fairly distinctive set of non-native speaker preposition mistakes. For someone whose native language is British English but who uses Yiddish idioms, it would sound mildly out of place but not ridiculous, IMO.
Joel talking about believing in God: I would say highly plausible since that's almost word for word what I would say if you asked me that question :-) [E.g.] Depending how (un)comfortable he felt, he might hedge even more than that and answer the question not with what he believes but with what his religion teaches, eg "I'm a monotheist" or "Judaism believes that there is one God who is the Creator of the universe". (I think this sort of evasion is possibly more common among Jews from the more Orthodox end of the spectrum, but we all do it.)